Curse

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 04:18 AM // 04:18

I agree completely with you. I mean who doesn't want to see what they like made better right? I think though that if that edge can be toned down and if more people can take a step back and look at it from a different perspective they will see that thatere is a reason and that it's not anyone's fault. It's not PVP's fault, It's not Anet's fault and it's not PvE's fault. It simply has to be done to keep the game enjoyable. If you don't have a dynamic skill system then you end up with 4 or 5 uber builds dominating the scene, ala Diablo 2. For a long time bone necro and hammerdin pwnt everything. Then it was still hammerdin followed by the lightning javazon. There was no room for innovation because the skill system was never balanced or tweaked to any real degree. It got to the point that there was no point in trying anything new because it just plain wouldn't work. I don't want to see guild Wars like that and I don't think anyone else really wants it to get to that point either.

It is just that we get so caught up in our pet builds that when something bad happens to them it hurts pretty bad. Still it is all for the best in the end.

Winstar · Jan 23, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

There are basically 3 possible outcomes when a skill is changed,

1) It effects PvP but has little effect on PvE (Price of Pride)

2) It effects PvE but has little effect on PvP (Glads Defense)

3) It effects both (Searing Flames, RAO maybe, Shield of Absorb)

1 and 2 don't support the claim that PvP ruins PvE, yet it is clear that skill balance time at Anet takes into account PvE, and skill change in PvE isn't just an unfortunate aftereffect of PvP changes.

So the real worry is 3, those skills that overlap. The general view of PvP players is that skill balance for PvP should take priority as the effect of overpowered skills have an extremely negative impact on PvP environments while in PvE it does little to effect playability. On top of this, in terms of competition for Anets attention in terms of game features, PvE has historically done much better. The only thing that PvP gets is a shoddy job of skill changing up until now. We both get the same new classes and skills, but ontop of that PvEers get a new story and mission line, new loot, new elite missions, heroes, new farming areas, etc etc.PvP player get a couple new halls for GvG. If you're worried about Anets attention, don't, you have it.

Honestly, Str0b0 and others when you say you find PvP easy you seem to be talking about RA and AB and formats like this for the most part which are not reflective of the actual competative aspect of PvP, i.e. GvG and to some extent HA. I'm not trying to flame, but most PvE players seem generally oblivious to the world of actual competitive GW PvP and the importance of balancing that format for it to create a healthy playing envirionment. The situation is exactly the same as competative magic the gathering. At high levels of competetion creating a balanced format is important and for casual players to dictate what the DCI does for magic would be absurd. Likewise its absurd imo to say that PvE should be given priority in case 3. Honestly, half of my frustration with these discussions is that the above is not -in many cases- appreciated by PvE players who post.

What is making PvE bad? Its not PvP. Take a look at

1) Clamping down on running and the openended nature of the game
2) Scatter effect on AI discourages farming methods
3) Same old formula repeated in basic gameplay is getting old. (missions etc)

These are the big things that have made PvE less enjoyable and they were changes Anet made or choose not to make that had nothing to do with PvP. The real problem are not a couple overlapping skills that both groups use.

Str0b0 · Jan 23, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

No I completely understand why the skill balances should be done for the sake of competitiveness. Regardless of the format though to me PvP strategy is still simplistic. Again that's not a reflection on PvP merely on my perceptions of the game itself. I am challenged by story and by problem solving. PvP is too dynamic for me to regard it effectively as a problem solving format and so I fall back on the tried and true strategy of destroying the supports. again I find it easy not because it's a weak aspect but because of the way my brain is geared to function. Do you understand better now? It's not a knock on the true competitive nature of PvP it's just me the way I am and I realize that.
I meant no offense nor did I mean to impugn anyone that finds it challenging and exciting. Your brain is simply geared differently, not less effectively or superiorly to mine just differently. That's the beauty of Guild Wars. It caters to the both of us and we can co exist. The things you find wrong with PvE to me make it worthwhile. It's just our different perspectives.

Winstar · Jan 23, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Lets set brains aside, I like to think I enjoy problem solving as well.

PvP strategy is simply not more simplistic by any reasonable measure. Simple is fewer things to consider and keep track of. I.e I walk out of a portal and I know what monsters are there, what skills they use, what patorl route they walk. My skills were chosen specifically to be effective against that roaming mob. Its one simple puzzle that you simply repeat time and time again.

In PvP you are faced in a single match with a multitude of puzzles that may differ from puzzles you faced in the past. You have different builds you may face in any GvG map, being able to figure out how they work on the fly, identify who the problem characters are for your team, who the most effective character on your team is for shutting them down. There are split tactics, who did they send to your base, what is the most approriate response. We're losing at the stand how can we adjust to tilt the game back into our favor? Those are just some general tactical decisions to make on top of the multitude of individual choices each player in the build must make given their role and information on the other team and the state of the game. General game awareness much be higher than in PvE. Team coordination is far more important than it is in PvE. I really can't see any measure on which PvP is simplisitc.

Please don't lace the peace and harmony talk with not so subtle condescending remarks.

thedork01 · Jan 23, 2007, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Why does it have to be PvP vs PvE. What do people have against enjoying all of the game. Guild Wars was not "made for PvP" or made for PvE. It was made in an attempt to integrate the two aspects of gameplay into one excellent game. Honestly, I wish they had made you play through PvE once before you could make PvP characters, but I know a lot of people wouldn't like that, and alright.

However, I am very fond of the integration of PvE and PvP. You're upset that Europe has favor and you can't go to FoW? Head over to HA and give it a shot. Hell, you might even win the favor back. If Anet intended gw to be all about PvE they would not spend the time to make the beautiful and intricate environments that exist in the PvE world. If it was made for PvE, there would not be nearly as many skill balances as there are.

I love exploring random areas and just taking in the beauty of some areas. I particularly love the areas in Vabbi. On the same token, I love the competitive nature of PvP and the constantly changing metagame.

I wish that PvE only people would give PvP more of a chance and PvP people would give PvE more of a chance. If you say that PvE is too easy and there is no strategy involved, I suggest you try your hand at DoA, or even Urgoz or the Deep. You certainly can't walk into any of those with an empty skill bar.

I wish everyone would take the game as it is, as a whole, and not divide it into two distinct segments.

Sharn-Mes · Jan 23, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedork01

Honestly, I wish they had made you play through PvE once before you could make PvP characters, but I know a lot of people wouldn't like that, and alright.

And thank god you dont have to do that!!!

Nickhimself · Jan 23, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

This is one of the most controversial topics in GW. What's more important, PvE or PvP?

to me, it's PvE. But to many others, it's PvP.

In my opinion, the only real option to satisfy everyone, would be to seperate the two from each other in a way where PvE skills had different effects than PvP skills did. They're all the same skills / names, but different power levels between the two different gameplay types.

Where this would get confusing: Challenge Missions. Since they're easily accessible from PvE mapping, some people might zone into one with a good PvE build but a weak PvP build. Not a big deal, since you can change it...but still. It would anger some people.

It would take a while to split it all up / balance both sides...but I think it would satisfy everyone more than the current "omg this skill is useless in PvE but OP in PvP" crap we see.

Vital · Jan 23, 2007, 08:55 AM // 08:55

FFS just login and play the F'ing game...

By the time you are midway though your complaints about this nerf and that nerf - some hyper Clove Smoking nerd has already worked a way around all the nerfs you could ever complain about. Quit the QQ and try working on a solution.

I PvE and PvP...shit works out fine for me. Ive played in PvP tourneys and done 5 hour DoA 4 zone runs...I never thought once that either aspect of the game was taking a bite out of the other. In fact I have learned a great deal from both. I get build and counter ideas from PvE and I use PvP communication and strat to make hardcore PvE like DoA easy.

OP is whack...

eggs · Jan 23, 2007, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

In short, PvE is balanced for casual play, and PvP is balanced for competitive play. It has nothing to do with Arenanet's priorities and everything to do with the nature of the gametypes themselves.

The desires of PvE players and PvP players will usually be different and changes that benefit one group will only alienate another. It is frustrating when as a PvE player I have to go back and relearn a huge amount of skills every new PvP season. I don't understand why they just don't separate the two. They are already selling a PvP version of the game...but no PvE version... They will only further alienate players with endless balancing and changing of game mechanics to satisfy the PvP players.
From what I know of another game that has 8 million subscribers they do have skill balances, but its not so massive that if you left for 6 months you would come back to a completely different game. Or find your favorite skill is now a bad joke. That game has its downfalls to be sure but I would imagine they didn't get to be that popular by alienating people. Anet seems to be a good company when it comes to responding to the community...it just takes time. I would like GW to continue to succeed and grow and I don't see how that will happen if they continue alienating their user base. If you go through and read many of the rants on this site of the misery of farmers and people who miss the good old days of UW 2 man 4 man teams you would see a pattern. Sometimes players just want to play and have fun doing the same old thing. New stuff is cool, but if such a huge portion of skills gets changed every PvP season it becomes then an obstacle and a hindrance.

SotiCoto · Jan 23, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

Lets set brains aside, I like to think I enjoy problem solving as well.

PvP strategy is simply not more simplistic by any reasonable measure. Simple is fewer things to consider and keep track of. I.e I walk out of a portal and I know what monsters are there, what skills they use, what patorl route they walk. My skills were chosen specifically to be effective against that roaming mob. Its one simple puzzle that you simply repeat time and time again.

Maybe if you're a farmer or a faction quest grinder... and have nothing better to do than go through the same area over and over again with exactly the same party, build and everything.
Most of us PvE'ers here differentiate between areas... between our own chosen builds... between those we participate with (even if its just AI). Anyone who becomes too familiar with a particular experience (same area, same party, same skills) is either farming there... or is doing in 10 runs what they could have done in 1...

Quote:

In PvP you are faced in a single match with a multitude of puzzles that may differ from puzzles you faced in the past. You have different builds you may face in any GvG map, being able to figure out how they work on the fly, identify who the problem characters are for your team, who the most effective character on your team is for shutting them down. There are split tactics, who did they send to your base, what is the most approriate response. We're losing at the stand how can we adjust to tilt the game back into our favor? Those are just some general tactical decisions to make on top of the multitude of individual choices each player in the build must make given their role and information on the other team and the state of the game. General game awareness much be higher than in PvE. Team coordination is far more important than it is in PvE. I really can't see any measure on which PvP is simplisitc.

PvP is complicated at the level of semantics... but simple in basic concept. It is war.... much as a game of tag in a children's playground is war. PvP play in GW just takes an inbetween level of seriousness...
On a more detailed level... yes it does take tactics... and all kinds of complicated judgements and whatnot. One shouldn't overlook however the fact that many judgements are split-second when it actually comes to the fight itself.... the complication is mostly in the preparation... You don't have to worry about sneaking past groups of enemies without triggering aggro as everyone has maps and know you're there. You don't have to worry so much about finding something elusive in a largely unfamiliar area... as what you need to find is out in the open.

Furthermore... even you'd have to admit that PvP tactics becomes a game of numbers and directions... Its a vector game. Those who are seriously into it would still feel the same way most likely even if it was a simplistic 16-bit game with coloured blips... It all becomes about the vectors... who gets the highest numbers and which way they go.

And then of course a call goes out to the casual PvP'ers who don't do any of that tactics stuff you talk about... and actually exist in quite huge numbers. They really are simple-minded.... often even moreso than PvE PuGs... I've seen what they're like in arena battle. Its just a matter of C > Space > Hammer numbers > C > Space > Hammer numbers.... They die, and then they charge back out and do it all over again. What funny creatures... ^_^

Now see..... I'm not hugely against PvP play. If you like that sorta stuff then good for you..... but I will always be defensive of those who start criticising the PvE in Guild Wars... Its vastly more entertaining than the tedious level-grind found in other MMORPGs...

Amity and Truth · Jan 23, 2007, 01:49 PM // 13:49

*shrugs*
Having to adapt in PVE basically means, having to spend money. Many people don't have too much money and quite a lot moan about the amount of money you have to pay to unlock a single skill.
So when a Build gets killed by A-Net, it's mostly a question of suddenly having to spend more money on things. And basically it is not just one skill, it's a multitude of them to reshape a new build.
A PVP Player just stuffs in another build, no time lost, no money cost and gets ready to roll again.

But to be honest... AoE Update kills PVE more than ANY Skillbalance for PVP could ever do. The problem lies in the numbers, like I have stated in the thread which got closed in the Testweekend Section (instead of moving it, meh). There are almost 500 Enemies on some of the maps and more often then enough you have to fight through almost all of them. This was tedious and boring to start with, but now that the enemies run like chicken, its even worse.
It is not the problem of bringing speedbuffs and snares, it is the problem of having to chase down every single one of those enemies. Imagine a HA match versus 8 runners. I'm sure you would absolutely like it. Now multiply this match by 100 and you've got the same gaming experience as in PVE.

Fewer enemies and kiting behaviour = Perfect.
or
Keep enemy sizes and revoke AOE Update = Perfect.

But keeping the current amount of enemies AND having them kite like chickens on dope = Tedious and boring.

Gun Pierson · Jan 23, 2007, 01:57 PM // 13:57

I'm a PvE player atm, but I played enough PvP to know that skill balance is needed there. Nevertheless Anet shouldn't nerf pve skills because of farming purposes and call it a pvp nerf. A perfect example of this is Shield of Absorption. You can interupt the spell now in pvp but with a 6-8 secs lasting time I expect we won't see that often. This is clearly a pve nerf but in the end you can still farm with it, it's just more annoying, once more. So what good does the nerf do except for putting more oil on the PvE fire?

Bastian · Jan 23, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

FFS just login and play the F'ing game...

By the time you are midway though your complaints about this nerf and that nerf - some hyper Clove Smoking nerd has already worked a way around all the nerfs you could ever complain about. Quit the QQ and try working on a solution.

I PvE and PvP...shit works out fine for me. Ive played in PvP tourneys and done 5 hour DoA 4 zone runs...I never thought once that either aspect of the game was taking a bite out of the other. In fact I have learned a great deal from both. I get build and counter ideas from PvE and I use PvP communication and strat to make hardcore PvE like DoA easy.

OP is whack...

QFT

Love the part about the clove smoking nerd.

/agreed

bug_out · Jan 23, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vital

FFS just login and play the F'ing game...

QFT!

*sigh* Haven't we seen enough of the PvP vs PvE BS? Just go play the damn game!

gasmaskman · Jan 23, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

They are already selling a PvP version of the game...but no PvE version...

Um...they are, and it's $50 in the game. If you're talking about *JUST* PvE, why would ANYONE want to buy GW without: AB, RA, TA, HA, GvG, etc. they are an idiot.

Relambrien · Jan 23, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bug_out

QFT!

*sigh* Haven't we seen enough of the PvP vs PvE BS? Just go play the damn game!

QFT.

The game is what it is, learn to adapt to skill changes, discover new combinations that weren't thought of, etc. When I'm playing PvE I have a very fun time switching between a bunch of different builds; each is a different playstyle so it's something new each time. If a skill gets nerfed, I deal with it and adjust my build accordingly. I may not be able to do something as easily as before, but for the most part, it's still doable.

GourangaPizza · Jan 23, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I'm curious, does the PvP version comes with only Prophecies content or what?

Anyway, I seldom see people who particapate only in Pvp right from the beginning. People who only Pve is very common.

wynoski · Jan 23, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

To set a frame of reference...
I have beaten all three chapters,
I have minimal experience in the Elite areas (FOW, Tombs, Urgotz, etc)
I just unlocked the team arenas.
I have never done AB or GVG.
I do farm to improve my cast of charaters and to make money (quote PT Barnum here)

I feel sad that you have been using one Elite. I have about 85...as for the difficulty in capping...please, go look for Sandstorm or FOC.

The issue I have seen in PVE vs PVP is that people treat them very differently, and really they are not. Now that I have beat all three PVE chapters I have turned to helping people with missions and quests (for Gold). I have seen people get to the last mission with the same build and only 12 skills...if that is how you treat PVE, they yeah it can be crappy...

The same goes for PVP...I saw a thread where someone was complaining about MM in ABs...I am an excellent MM but have see dervish bosses and smiting monks wipe the army in less than 30 sec...to everything there is a counter punch..this game PVE and PVP is supposed to evolve.

With the additional heros, i am surprised there are not more team or hero builds on wiki. When I go out or play with one of my guilides, we deck out our heros to take on everything, or to counter a specific threat. It really cannot be any different than the PVP world.

A-net nerfed the AOE AI so instead of dual SS necros, we not can do FOC/SS spikes...the game evolves and it becomes fun...

Try branching out...I think about skill combos all the time...I am still working on that hero hench build to take on Rotscale and his entire mob with out dying or retreating...that's what makes this game great...

To sum up...I used to play the original bards tale (I'm not only old school, I'm Old) Stand up Space invaders is not some relic or piece of kitch...its called third grade..anyway...I don't play bards tale, or Civilization or even my PS2 because its the same everytime...the programming and all is static. I look forward to the skill balances...

Bring it on A-net...I may be 2-18 against the gate of pain mission, but i'll figure it out, and I will triumph.

Well99 · Jan 23, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasmaskman

Um...they are, and it's $50 in the game. If you're talking about *JUST* PvE, why would ANYONE want to buy GW without: AB, RA, TA, HA, GvG, etc. they are an idiot.

You might feel like a idiot only buying PVE version but many folks do strictly PVE.So they dont play the PVP portion.
Also I see where some say they only bring a couple chrs thru the game.Well that is fine but some of us will take all out chrs thru.I like playing the different class thru the complete game.Did 4 in GWP.6 in GWF and will do 10 in NF.I do it because I can and it is what I enjoy.
I like making new builds for my chrs to deal with different areas with different classes.
I dont PVP because it holds no interest for me.I dont feel like using some gimmick build in a area where they dont even have degen to make you adapt to adverse environment.If that is what you like cool.Not my thing.

Skyy High · Jan 23, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

There are basically 3 possible outcomes when a skill is changed,

1) It effects PvP but has little effect on PvE (Price of Pride)

2) It effects PvE but has little effect on PvP (Glads Defense)

3) It effects both (Searing Flames, RAO maybe, Shield of Absorb)

1 and 2 don't support the claim that PvP ruins PvE, yet it is clear that skill balance time at Anet takes into account PvE, and skill change in PvE isn't just an unfortunate aftereffect of PvP changes.

So the real worry is 3, those skills that overlap. The general view of PvP players is that skill balance for PvP should take priority as the effect of overpowered skills have an extremely negative impact on PvP environments while in PvE it does little to effect playability. On top of this, in terms of competition for Anets attention in terms of game features, PvE has historically done much better. The only thing that PvP gets is a shoddy job of skill changing up until now. We both get the same new classes and skills, but ontop of that PvEers get a new story and mission line, new loot, new elite missions, heroes, new farming areas, etc etc.PvP player get a couple new halls for GvG. If you're worried about Anets attention, don't, you have it.

Honestly, Str0b0 and others when you say you find PvP easy you seem to be talking about RA and AB and formats like this for the most part which are not reflective of the actual competative aspect of PvP, i.e. GvG and to some extent HA. I'm not trying to flame, but most PvE players seem generally oblivious to the world of actual competitive GW PvP and the importance of balancing that format for it to create a healthy playing envirionment. The situation is exactly the same as competative magic the gathering. At high levels of competetion creating a balanced format is important and for casual players to dictate what the DCI does for magic would be absurd. Likewise its absurd imo to say that PvE should be given priority in case 3. Honestly, half of my frustration with these discussions is that the above is not -in many cases- appreciated by PvE players who post.

What is making PvE bad? Its not PvP. Take a look at

1) Clamping down on running and the openended nature of the game
2) Scatter effect on AI discourages farming methods
3) Same old formula repeated in basic gameplay is getting old. (missions etc)

These are the big things that have made PvE less enjoyable and they were changes Anet made or choose not to make that had nothing to do with PvP. The real problem are not a couple overlapping skills that both groups use.

Yeah, I was going to make a long post, but you went and saved me the time and trouble. So, QFT, this is dead on.

As for PvP being more simplistic than PvE...bull. I blazed through NF PvE with the same set of 3 heros and 4 henchies, save Ruins of Morah, Gate of Madness, and Abaddon's Gate, because those missions don't really conform to the standard mob maps as the rest of the game. Try doing that in PvP (serious PvP). You can't with 99% of builds, and the 1% that you can pull it off with (Searing Flames) gets fixed so it's not so mindless.

Don't judge PvP by RA and TA...that's just for screwing around.